Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 13, 2007 20:00:05 GMT -5
Hey after totally turning the chat with me thread into a debate with me thread over PETA, Kai thought it would be best to take this to a debate thread ^^; Anyway a few of you have your opinions of PETA, some for, some against and some well, some just love animals like many of us ^^ So have any particular views on PETA that you wish to express? I personally don't like PETA, i used to be a supporter but after learning what they were upto they rapidly fell out of my good books. If you've not seen my posts i posted a video on the happenings of PETA i'll warn you though, it contain's bad language and isn't meant to offend anyone even if they feel strongly for PETA. www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY The movement to abolish animal cruelty is something i respect but to go to extremes using violence to promote a message of peace/ anti violence to animals confuses me o.O WSPA people, they're the one's to donate to unless of course someone can shed light on me if they indeed are exploiting people's money but so far i haven't seen them use extreme violence to promote a message.
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Post by Kai on Jul 13, 2007 23:12:24 GMT -5
While I am a big supporter of reasonable doubt, and always being slightly supsicious about large agencies I would like to caution anyone who watches that video. Please remember than every program, no matter how good will have its faults in it. For example, can you blame Aduabon a widely known animal lover if one of his zoos today mistreats animals? He has probably done a great deal of good by letting the public get to realize that many myths about animals are foolish. Wolves and coyotes are not demons, and infact they look a bit like your dog. He gave the public a chance to see some hated animals in a new light.
Maybe giving money to this charity isn't this the best of ideas at this time, or maybe PETA was having a crazy fluke for a while. You can do things on your own including: Not buying any clothes made of animals. Cotton will keep you warm enough. Eat a little less meat. Humans only need a very small portion of meat each day, the size of your palm, and it is very easy to subsitute it with other protien rich food. It will not make you shorter or stop your growth. Both Robyn (a full vegetrain) and myself (who eats meats only three or four times a month) are taller than the national average of female height. And we aren't adults yet! Avoid brands of shampoo/make up that test on animals.
Little steps like voluntring at the animal shelter, choosing a stray for your next pet, and just talking to someone help. I mean it can't hurt, right? The point of this rant is, don't blame most of the members of PETA. Most just want to help. Find an organization you trust or volunteer on your own. The worst thing is doing nothing. As Albert Einstein once said:
''The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.''
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Post by Blahwolf on Jul 14, 2007 0:02:22 GMT -5
Gee Kai, now I feel pretty proud of myself for doing all of those things. I don't support PETA, but I do support animal welfare. I'd just also like to add to list: please, PLEASE do not attend circuses or rodeos. By the gods, those things sicken me. Exploiting and abusing animals in the name of "entertainment" is horrible! I'd like to point out this video that showcases what really goes on in rodeos: youtube.com/watch?v=vIZJHZ9tEo0&mode=related&search=(the video isn't graphic)
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Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 14, 2007 12:11:45 GMT -5
So you should Blah ^^ as for going to a rodeo or a circus you have no worries. Why would anyone want to go to a rodeo anyway? The people there seem like a bunch of arrogant so and so's, the only reason i'd go there would be to give them a black eye, now that would be a show worth watching
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Post by Kai on Jul 14, 2007 15:08:17 GMT -5
You are welcome. And ha Fuzzy you got censored! Blah maybe asking Blue to remove censorship or change it so you can figure out the word might be a good idea. Also I find trying to get a decent pet food is hard. Most companies do horrid tests on animals that are sicking. Iams in the worst in my opinion. I am a huge supporter of the anit-Iams campains. It seems this debate has gotten a little less pushy. ^^ I am glad. Funny, maybe being in the debate corner stopped the debating.
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Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 14, 2007 20:10:35 GMT -5
I did? What word did i say that made it get cencored? I don't see any words edited or missing from my original post o.O Unless you mean my use of so and so's lol there isn't really word good enough to describe them me thinks I'm not aware of the Iams tests that go on so i really can't say, all i can say is they need to try it out to see the effects, once thats done testing wouldn't be needed again and that should determine whether the product is useable or not. Do you have information on this incident with Iam's Kai?
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Post by Blahwolf on Jul 14, 2007 22:37:26 GMT -5
I think Blue's fixed the censorship, Fuzzy. The word that was edited was 'cocky'. Urrm...yeah...
Anyways, I wasn't aware of Iams tests either. It's a bit odd, because usually I'm up to date on those sort of things. Do you know of any other pet food companies that do animal tests, Kai?
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Post by Bluewolf on Jul 15, 2007 2:29:11 GMT -5
Yeah i removed all the words.
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Post by Iriscanine on Jul 15, 2007 3:08:29 GMT -5
Some people believe that all experiments conducted on animals are of extreme importance to the human race. However, some of the examples below prove that not all experiments not for cosmetics are useful.
Did you guys know that Coke used to do animal tests? They checked the acidity levels by seeing the levels of corrosion of rat's stomachs.
I read about this one experiment where they sewed kittens' eyelids shut so they could test the phylogical effects of light deprivation on the brain. I've seen pictures of cats fully concious with implants sticking out of their brains. Recently an experimenter was caught slitting open cat's backs (without anesthetics for fear of causing delayed nerve reactions.)and pinching their spines to see what kinds of nerve damage occured.
In "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer, I read of a device called a shuttlebox used for experiments of "learned helplessness". The box is comprised of two seperate compartments with a small barrier inbetween. A dog is placed on one side and electric shocks are administered through the floor into his/her paws. The dog will figure out to jump the barrier to the other side, relieving itself of the shocks. After a while, the barrier was placed so that the dog couldn't escape. In the researcher's own words: "the dog jumped forward and smashed his head against the glass." Then to try a different tactic, they strapped the dog down in a harness on a different electric floor. When they placed the dog back in the box this is what happened, in their own words: "Such a dog reacts initially to shock in the shuttlebox in the same manner as the naive dog. In contrast to the naive dog, it soons stops running and remains silent until shock terminates. The dog does not cross the barrier, but instead 'gives up' and 'accepts' the shock." These dogs were not given any painkillers or anesthetic at all for fear it would mess up their test results. I don't know about any of you, but I can't see how torturing dogs can possibly help mankind.
Iams does experiments with heart replacements in dogs, I believe. I also heard of them testing to see how much food a dog can consume before it's liver expanded. The dogs are not under proper anesthetic and are screamed at and hit. I saw a video on the PETA site of it.
Which brings me to my next point. I do support PETA and full blown animal rights. I believe in PETA's slogan, Animals are not ours to wear, eat, experiment upon, or use for entertainment. However, I do not condone the arson and such that they do. I find that the good they do far outrules the bad. Without them, we would not know about Iams testing or any other horrors that occur in our society without our notice. They brought animal rights into the public view. While the methods they used were incredibly stupid and dangerous, and sometimes downright illegal, I feel they have done a lot of good for animal rights activists and advocates.
That's just my two cents. ^^
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Post by Bluewolf on Jul 15, 2007 3:28:58 GMT -5
Why not? It would just be an another group that finds out eventually.
Imo i still support animal testing for medical treatments. You may say that animals react differently to illness's but thats simply not true. Animals do react similar and can suffer many from many of the diseases that we can. It may be painful for animal but we, as humans should put human lives and human suffering first. Its our duty as a species If many dogs have to die painfully then I'm sorry, so be it. Also:
"Don't worry Billy. Your father is going to die but think of the monkey's that have been saved."
"Don't cry Jill. This epidemic is killing many but think of all the cute puppies"
Can you really do that? Can you really say to a child that their parents died for a few animals?
Bluewolf.
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Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 15, 2007 11:42:14 GMT -5
Sorry about that Blue ^^; Thanks everyone for the feedback ^^
I don't deny human curiousity can lead to horrific things, what can i say really? I don't agree with those sorts of tests because we already know basically that those conditions will hurt, so no real need to test that. I'm with blue on medical testing though. I didn't know coke did that but i'm not really surprised. A film you guys might be interested in: The plague dogs. It's set in the Lake district and is about 2 dogs that escape an animal testing lab that do pointless tests.
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Post by Blahwolf on Jul 15, 2007 12:03:31 GMT -5
The thing that gets me most is that there are alternatives to animal tests. Instead of doing a medical test on a rat, they have computer programs available that would simulate how the human body would react. A few animal tests would be acceptable, but not the dozens and dozens of innocent lives that have to be put down when there are other means available.
That's just my 2 cents, but whatever.
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Post by Bluewolf on Jul 15, 2007 12:07:09 GMT -5
But simulations arn't always accurate or the effects vary. You need an actual test subject. Besides it would cost way to much as well.
In the end the alt means arnt very good.
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Post by Blahwolf on Jul 15, 2007 12:14:22 GMT -5
Animal tests aren't really that accurate either. The success rate of animals tests is actually fairly low. And think about it: The diseases are purposely put into the animal... humans don't catch diseases on purpose. The species difference doesn't help either.
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Post by Bluewolf on Jul 15, 2007 12:20:31 GMT -5
But they still suffer the same no matter if it was on purpose or not. The species diffrence is not much of a hinderance anyway. Also, animal testing a stage in finding new cures. Its not all down to it to find cures.
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