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Post by thealmightyq on Jul 15, 2007 22:52:35 GMT -5
Well, what are they? Why do you believe what you believe?
I myself am a Christian of the conservative breed. I think that the Torah is, for the most part, an accurate account of actual events. Genesis 1-11 confuse me, but I think it is possible that these are part of a Hebrew polemic against polytheism. I think that the rest of the Tanakh (Old Testament) is accurate and should be interpreted literally. The exception to this latter rule is when the passage is obviously metaphorical, such as parables and metaphors used in the text. (Personally, I think that this is part of a literal interpretation, but that's more of a debate regarding semantics than anything evidential in nature). I think that the Tanakh foreshadows Jesus. I think that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed miracles, died on a cross, and was resurrected three days later. I think that the Acts of the Apostles is an accurate account of the history of the early church. I think that all of the letters in the New Testament that claim to be written by Paul were written by Paul, etc. In short, I believe firmly in the accuracy of the Bible.
As for my views on other religions, I am not a Jew because I believe there is definitely sufficient evidence to support the idea that the Tanakh predicts the coming of Jesus Christ, and therefore to accept the Old Testament and be honest with the evidence is to accept Christianity.
I am not a Muslim for a multitude of reasons that are not evidential (such as the fact that the Islam of Muhammad propagated the doctrine of imperialistic jihad to impose the caliphate on non-Islamic states), but I also see evidential reasons to avoid Islam. It is very possible the Qu'ran was corrupted (The western scholar of Islam, Christoph Luxenburg discovered what is universally agreed to be the earliest scraps of the Qu'ran, and it differs from the modern Qu'ran in many ways). The Qu'ran makes many anachronisms and errors when talking about times that fell before it. There are other reasons I don't support Islam, but I can't summarize all those here.
I am not a Hindu or Buddhist not because of any evidence against them, per se. I haven't investigated them nearly enough to know of any. However, I feel that the evidence supporting Christianity is enough to supplant the idea that Hinduism or Buddhism is an evidentially coherent explanation of our world. Same for Baha'i, Jainism, Taoism, Shinto, Confucianism, etc. The only criticism I have of Hinduism is that its view of truth seems to be so loose that what constitutes "evidence" doesn't have much significance, but that assertion could easily be overturned when I read more.
What are your views, and why do you believe that these views are accurate?
TheAlmightyQ
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Post by Snowmuzzle on Jul 16, 2007 3:41:07 GMT -5
(Just to remind you to keep it nice, people. No flaming or insulting other people's beliefs-- please remember that there are people of all backgrounds here. This is a debate forum, but it's not a Rip-off-everyone-else's-head-who-does-not-agree-with-me-then-go-into-a-massive-sulk-when-I-get-told-off forum. Please be aware that Mods can delete your posts if they feel they are not appropriate or break the rules.)
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Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 16, 2007 19:13:55 GMT -5
First off this could be a very interesting thread ^^ As for beliefs i myself i'm a christian though i tend to feel i'm not a very 'good' one. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and that God is with me in the times i need him and in times i don't particularly feel i need him. Religions to me seem like many different paths to the same point and that point being inner enlightenment. Sure in may religions some say reincarnation, heaven and hell, nirvana etc. but really the journey taken is one in order to find out your true self, well thats how i interprete. I may not being a regular church attender, or read my bible much but i do pray. To me christianity is all about faith in God and what God's son has done for us, the whole going to church in order to be sat next to people who use christianity as a status symbol and an excuse to act snobbish, i don't see much point in that. Perhaps this is one of his teachings? Love thy Neighbour? I'm not sure but it has opened my eyes to what people are really like, patience and of course forgiveness, afterall we all make mistakes, we're only human ^^ As for believeing views being accurate i don't, how can anyone know really what is and what isn't? To me religion is a personal thing, it is unique to each individual, some would interprete say the bible differently, some believe in some parts, some take parts literally where others do not do so for the same parts, which really is fine, all in all it's about your own faith and your own journey to peace and growing I'm not sure about anyone else but i've found i have grown a lot since i've found God ^^ Perhaps with people's religions they have grown somewhat too and learnt a lot about themselves which helps them to help either themselves or others?
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Post by thealmightyq on Jul 17, 2007 19:58:42 GMT -5
First off this could be a very interesting thread ^^ I know! The topic of people, their views, and what they believe, is incredibly fascinating. I think the religious views that humanity has come up with over the ages are worth learning about, and intellectual pursuit of the correct belief is very helpful. Of course, there is a certain arrogance that can develop when one learns a lot about any topic (I used to struggle with this SO much; I actually still have to try and control this elitist urge when I argue with others. Just shows how fallible and human I am, no?) I think any contribution that is not demeaning to another poster (unless that poster is being demeaning him/herself) is a wonderful contribution and helps we as humans bind together as a community. I've been there a million times. My family is very devout, and I oftentimes was one of the least devout in my family. That has changed in the past year, and I am now much more concerned about my faith and acting it out for God. This is a growing process that takes years, and oftentimes you'll be disappointed with how little you've grown. The thing though, is when I look back at how much I've grown as a person in the past two years, I really am happy. God's taken a stubborn, arrogant, self-centered teenage boy (me!) and done things with him. I never was very good material to work with, and you may not be either (I don't know anything about you, but it seems to me that you are a very kind, thoughtful person Yes, God is with us, as the Bible says. Oftentimes we don't see it, but He's always there if we are faithful to Him. It is great that you get this experience in your life, fuzzy, and I hope that you are ever growing in your faith. If you don't mind me asking, why do you believe this? This is not an Orthodox Christian position. It is a position that is more akin to Buddhism and Hinduism than Christianity. The Jesus of Christianity says that "No man comes to the Father but by me." Why do you believe there are other ways to get to the Father? I am not trying to denigrate your beliefs, I am just curious, the reason being that you describe yourself as Christian and seem to believe that Jesus' atonement is necessary for salvation. I'm just wondering where the logic comes from. This view is another view that is more akin to Hinduism and Buddhism than Christianity. Why do you believe in Jesus' atonement if you think that it is not the correct path to salvation? Well, not trying to be mean (I would never be mean to someone who is being as polite and sincere as you! , but why do you not give your whole self to God, instead of just part of yourself? God made us to glorify him, and that's where our souls should be. Wouldn't Christ's atonement be unnecessary if other religions already had a path to God through inner enlightenment? There is no point in that. It is hypocritical. It is the exact same attitude as the Pharisees that Jesus spent so much time condemning. (On the outside they looked pure and faithful, but on the inside, if you don't minding me quote the Bible , they were full of "dead men's bones") Yes, we are human! We all make mistakes and sin. However, God's justice is perfect, and we therefore deserve punishment. God's love, however, wants us to be with Him forever. God found a way to satisfy both his justice and his love with the atonement of Jesus. He laid down His life for us; the proper response is that we give our lives to Him in return. That is a good question (my battery is almost out on this laptop, so I have to leave soon), but there is a very good article about this topic here.But Christianity was inaugurated with a very public act: The death of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is good to hear! I agree that I've grown at times from the articulations of truth expounded in other religions. Something I would like to do, fuzzy, is show you a website that may really help you with your faith. It is christian-thinktank.com. It is the most superb website of its kind on the web. I can honestly say there is no website that addresses the evidence from a Christian view as thoroughly and logically as this site does. TheAlmightyQ
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Post by Kai on Jul 17, 2007 21:42:22 GMT -5
Wow you have just opened a can of worms for yourself. I, myself, have dramasticly different views that everyone who has posted so far. But I am also dead and really in need of rest. Tommorow I will try and type up a good arguement for you all. Promise.
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Post by Bluewolf on Jul 18, 2007 4:51:34 GMT -5
Its the same with me too Kai. OK, I'm sorry, i just could not let you say that without a response. The view that we deserve to go to hell for an act that someone did when humanity began is evil. Basically your saying we deserve to burn forever if we don't accept Jesus. According to you we have to be perfect by gods stander eds or burn and you use the god is perfect lie to shield yourself from any argument against his morality.(Which is not perfect. Read the old testament) By your logic a atheist who feeds starving children all their lives will burn in hell forever. This is the kind of statement that drove me away Christianity. Its sick and disturbing. Even more so that gods own son had to die to pay of our "sins". That how nice god is people. He needs death for forgiveness. Also according to you: Oh so god needs glorifying now eh? What a nice guy. Oh and guys, want to see how moral and good god really is: www.creationtheory.org/BiblicalMorality/Thats all i have to say at the moment.
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Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 18, 2007 6:50:25 GMT -5
Hey ThealmightyQ ^^ First off sorry i know my beliefs seem a bit scattered because well my mind for the past few years has been a bit of a maze, i've turned to God on several occasions for support on this. When i was younger i needed someone to love me no matter who i was or what i did so God was what i needed. I do believe God has done a lot for me although some would disagree, but perhaps this is God's way? If one does something right people will think you've done nothing at all, sort of thing. As for the other religions part i just think the journey to finding out what makes you tick and hence making you a 'better' person is the important part, sure heaven would be nice but some view paradise in different ways so in theory other religions all have their own paths to their own paradise so i just over simplified it, some people's idea of paradise may not be heaven but to live again etc. Hope it makes sense and hope that answers your questions (again we're going back to the a feel i'm not a very good christian ^^; ) Thank you for not attacking, i've experienced not so pleasant responses on this subject before. As for going to church i feel God would rather me do something more useful with my time than rather sit in a building for a few hours and listen to gospel, like help others or help myself, sounds selfish but again i'm human and God loves me none the less no matter what i do. Personally i don't see how going to a church shows that you have more faith, i mean some people go to church and from the looks of it don't give a blind damn about what God teaches. Again sorry if i sound lost because really i am, a few times i've questioned God, though he's always proven himself, i've also found numerous things about myself which made me think i was evil etc but again God has shown me i'm not. All i know is that God loves me, thats what i need most really and i give him love in return and stay in touch everyday. I try to help others less fortunate than myself, i'm generally easy going to others and try to give them no reason to pick a fight with me and what not. To some people would see me as a lousy Christian, perhaps i am but no matter what i am i have God's love ^^ and that is what has gotten me through so many troubles i've had in my short life. Thanks for the links i'll have to look at them after work ^^
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Post by Blahwolf on Jul 18, 2007 10:36:43 GMT -5
It's good to hear I'm not alone at least. I'm 100% with Fuzzy. Yeah, I'm not a good Christian, but I love God, and that should be a good enough response. He's helped me through a lot, although I've sort of pushed myself away from the church.
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Purgatory yet. Now, in my opinion, someone who is good but isn't a believer of God goes there. I'm by no means "Bible-savvy" so I can't really say I know too much about the place. But yeah, that's what I believe. That's why God tells us to pray for the souls in Purgatory, right? Eh? I think so, anyways. One of you guys can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but it's what I believe.
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Fuzzy
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 18, 2007 15:09:02 GMT -5
I always thought Purgatory was a catholism thing? It was never mentioned when i went to church, according to them it's either heaven or hell. Nice to hear i'm not alone ^^ and don't wprry i'm not exactly up to speed on the bible either, i'm not sure about you but i tend not to take it literally all the time.
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Post by Kai on Jul 18, 2007 22:00:06 GMT -5
Okay, let me say as much as I can right now.
I honestly think that relgion is a cooping device created by humanity. In a sense, it is also a way to glorfy us just likes part of astromy. Do we really believe that the stars align themselves for us? Wouldn't it be great if someone else was to blame for all of our troubles, and that we are really just victuims of him? But don't worry, we have the classic storybook hero and his friends to fight for us, even though we are corrupt.
At this time I have to laugh.
Now at this time I have picked on arguement for this post: Why I believe that the Bible is nothing more than another fiction book.
First of all, society's stories and fables have always followed its morals and beliefs. Movies are just the newest version of this. For example, why would a medival dragon want to eat a young, thin creature that has others to fight for it? Why not eat the old guy who really couldn't fight, and if he disappeared would simply be replaced? I am refering to the idea that a dragon would eat a princess over the old, fat king.
It's because the story was created to JUSTIFY why princess had to act in such a way and to help men stay in control.
The same thing can be seem in almost every aspect of the bible. There is a punishment for those who don't believe, a reward for those who do, ect. Look at saints. Most female saints became that by refusing to marrying a pagan of great power or giving birth to a great male. The Virgin Mary is important only because she gave birth to Jesus.
Please tell me what you think of my veiws. I have developed them over YEARS, and it is hard to explain them in one post. I work much better by anwsering questions.
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Post by thealmightyq on Jul 19, 2007 2:03:42 GMT -5
Hey Zoe. Thank you for giving your thoughts! Nice to talk to you again. Okay, let me say as much as I can right now. I honestly think that relgion is a cooping device created by humanity. Hmm. Maybe. However, the God of the Bible is oftentimes not the god one would create for an effective coping device. He is a god that is incredibly stiff on judging sin, and if you read that Bible, that means that God judges sin a lot. I can tell you that living according to Biblical precepts is oftentimes much harder than living life as if God didn't matter. If I had wanted to, I would have made a god that would have let me look at porn all day, commit adultery all I want, sin all I want, and then get tons of rewards when I get to heaven. The thing though, is God isn't like that. He hates the attitude that one can just live in this sort of cavalier attitude and still go to heaven. As a matter of fact, there is quite a lot of Biblical evidence (I would say overwhelming Biblical evidence) that people like this go to hell. To quote the Bible (before I quote this story, I have to admit that stories like this in the gospels used to scare me quite a bit ): Matthew 25:14-30 (New International Version)
The Parable of the Talents 14"Again, it [the kingdom of heaven] will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'
21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'
23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'Yes, there are aspects of Christianity that are very comforting, but there are also aspects that people enjoy ignoring in their daily lives. I would have to disagree. Many forms of religion (Christianity admittedly being an exception) have man being not all that important in the grand world scheme of things. If you look at most ancient near eastern creation mythologies, man is typically created simply to perform the drudge work of the gods because the gods themselves are too lazy to do it themselves. Man, in most of the world at the time that the Bible was written, was viewed as being an afterthought of creation created in response to the (all too human, if you ask me) needs of the gods. Many forms of ancient religions worshiped god as animal/human hybrid creatures, such as Osiris (who I believe has the head of a dog) and the Hindu Ganesha (who has the head of an elephant). There is a very famous story in the Bible where the Israelites create a golden calf and worship it. In the Biblical Book of Romans, when the Apostle Paul talks about the sins of the Gentiles, he mentions the fact that they made idols in the likeness of "birds, reptiles, and creeping things." Most of the ancient world seemed to view the natural world as being superior or equal to mankind (many gods, while they had human forms, also had animal forms, and many gods were simply personifications of the forces of nature). Take for another example, the ancient Indo-Iranian deity of justice and fertility, Mithra. What form did he have? Was he a strong, handsome man? No, he was a bull. The Biblical view that man is above the rest of creation was a rarity in the world in which it was written. I don't know about non-Hindu forms of astrology, but Hindu forms of astrology have less to do with the stars "lining up" for us as much as it has to do with the Hindu view that the universe is like a set of mirrors that reflects truths in one part to every other part. Hindus believe you can read that sort of thing in the flocks of birds, the palms of the hand, etc, because truth reflects itself all over our world in subtle, spiritual ways. *shrug* The Biblical view is that we are victims of...ourselves. There are definite exceptions to this: An amazing example being Job (pronounced jOb), who had his health, his family, and his possessions taken away from him, all because he was righteous. (BTW, the Book of Job is one of the greatest existentialist novels of the ancient world. I recommend the translation Raymond Schiendlin. You can read the first few pages on Amazon. . I recommend reading this article series for getting a detailed, well-thought-out, completely Biblical view of the situation. Yes. However, the Hebrews (remember, these are the people who wrote the Tanakh/Old Testament!) are almost always portrayed in a very negative light. Even when God is telling them about the land that He is going to take away from other people and give to them, God reminds the Israelites multiple times that it isn't because the Israelites are oh-so-great (God describes them as a "stiff-necked people" ), but because the society they are about to displant is incredibly evil. (There is, by the way, overwhelming evidence that the people the Israelites displanted raped and then burned their children in religious worship, practiced rampant bestiality, and encouraged hatred towards foreigners and dishonest merchant practices for over four-hundred years. Even the Bible says that the pagan nations surrounding these people, the Canaanites, were more righteous than they were, and mentions all the practices I described above). The Old Testament regulations for the nation of Israel, while they oftentimes seem backwards to us today, oftentimes had a level of benevolence unparalleled in the rest of the Ancient Near East. For example, Deuteronomy says that if the Israelites were attacked by a city that was not Canaanite, that the Israelites were to go to that city, offer it terms of peace, and then kill only males if the city decided to continue with war. Most cultures at the time would have gone to the city, sieged it without asking for peace, and then kill all the city's inhabitants. The Bible, when it describes mutilating defeated enemy kings after battles, has its worst scenario with cutting off the king's thumbs and big toes. It is well-attested that most cultures at the time would have gouged out the eyes of the defeated king and then left him to rot in a prison until he starved to death. (The above examples are describing non-Canaanite kings. For the sake of being honest, Canaanite kings got much worse treatment) However, the New Testament is an entire other world when it comes to the topic of its relationship with the culture that it was immersed in. Why? Well, because Christianity did everything that it possibly could have done to make people of its day hate it. Christianity's savior, for instance, is a man who was crucified. In those days, worshipping a man who was condemned to die by crucifixion would be like a group today worshiping a crack-addicted nudist pedophile. Christianity differed quite a bit from many sects of mainstream Judaism at the time, which is the source from which Christianity stems and had its origin. This created tension between Christianity and all other forms of Judaism at the time. Christianity's roots in Judaism, however, also gave even more cause for the pagan world to hate Christianity, because the pagan world hated Judaism. (The Roman historian Tacitus, for instance, describes Judaism and Christianity as "pernicious abomination"(s). The Romans commonly believed that Jews worshiped a donkey in their temple. The first piece of graffiti discovered in the Roman empire was a picture of person bowing down to a crucified man with a donkey's head, and under the picture were the words "Alexander worships his god." In other words, the first piece of graffiti discovered in the ancient world was made by Gentiles to mock Christianity's worship of a crucified man and Christianity's roots in Judaism simultaneously.) Christianity tied itself to a savior that was not ancient, which was a big no-no at the time. Christianity worshiped a man who came from a small town, which was also a big "don't do" when it comes to making religions. (If you were from an obscure area, you were considered worthless in the eyes of most of society back then.) Christianity is fascinating because it is the exact opposite of what the culture wanted, and still thrived. Something very unique must have happened for this to be the case, and I believe that it was the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus that caused Christianity's success in the world it was introduced to. See here for more information. The Bible has a concept of judgment that extends into the supernatural realm. Why is this wrong? I don't know much about saints, but I can tell you something else. In the Bible, most of the major characters are males. However, there are some very notable exceptions. An example of this is the Israelite leader, Deborah. She ruled over Israel for over twenty years, brilliantly defeated enemy armies in battle, and liberated Israel from foreign oppression. Huldah the prophetess was a major character who is thought by many Biblical scholars to have been more important than some of the male prophets who wrote the Bible. Most of the major characters in the Bible are male, true, but the Hebrews obviously had a view of women that allowed them to become great in their own right independent from any male. The Bible says that Mary gave birth to Jesus because she was important, not that she was important for giving birth to Jesus. However, I do admit that Catholics overdo the Mary thing WAY too much. (In case you're wondering, however, Christian Trinitarian doctrine as laid out in the Bible is that Jesus is God's wisdom incarnate, and you know what? In the Old Testament, God's wisdom is portrayed as...a woman. God is metaphorically described in the Book of Job as breastfeeding children. The Book of Isaiah and Deuteronomy talk about God giving birth. There are many feminine descriptions of God in the Bible. The reason the word "He" is always used is because the Hebrew words for God [ elohim and YHWH] are linguistically male, so the connecting words are also male. When you ignore this, the specifically male and the specifically female descriptions of God occur almost equally in the Old Testament) I think your views are indicative of a bright person, but need refinement in response to the source material of the religions that exist today. I really appreciate you taking the time to write these posts. I have also done the same with mine; I hope you find my views to be worthy of response. If I have any questions for you, I will ask them. TheAlmightyQ
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Post by thealmightyq on Jul 19, 2007 2:52:20 GMT -5
Its the same with me too Kai. OK, I'm sorry, i just could not let you say that without a response. The view that we deserve to go to hell for an act that someone did when humanity began is evil. Basically your saying we deserve to burn forever if we don't accept Jesus. Actually, there is quite a lot of Biblical evidence that hell is not a place of flames, but a place of shame. So the "burn forever if we don't accept Jesus" part isn't accurate. Trust me, I've struggled with the concept of hell a lot myself; there have been times when I've literally been soaked in my own tears crying to God to give me an answer as to why He would create the place. However, hell most likely is not a place of flames; it is a place where we get exactly what we wrought in this life. The punishment is meted out on an individual basis, hence why the Bible describes some people getting "few stripes" (little punishment) and others getting "many stripes" (a lot of punishment), and why the Bible describes some people's punishment as being "more bearable" than other people's punishment. See here. (this article discusses the Biblical concept of hell in great detail) If we get back exactly what we what we've done, then how is that wrong? God, because He is just, had to punish our sins. However, because He is loving, He wanted us to be with Him. The Word and Wisdom of God came down incarnate as a man and bore our punishment for us, but we have to accept this to make it to heaven. Yes, this means we have to accept Jesus to make it to heaven. I was talking to another Christian when I wrote my post, so I talked the same way I would have talked as if I was...talking to another Christian. I was not really trying to argue a point there. However, the view that morality exists apart from God, even if He exists, is incorrect. God is the ultimate source of morality, because He is the universal, transcendent mind that holds to be the most real thing in our universe. Either that, or morality is relative, and to describe anything as being "inherently immoral" is a logically meaningless statement. I've read the Old Testament. The issue of its morality is a difficult question to address, but I can guarantee that I've seen many, many cases that I thought were bizarre, cruel responses of God that turned out to be almost merciful. The killing of the Egyptian firstborn is an example. I can't summarize the whole situation due to the fact that it is 2:22 AM, but there is a great article here. To sum it up, God was responding to a nation-wide genocide and persecution on the part of the Egyptians that was responsible for at least three-million Hebrew deaths and consistent belligerence on the part of Egypt to God's options for a "way out" of the punishment, and God's punishment on the Egyptians didn't even defy Egyptian notions of what they would have deserved at the time. There is much more to it than that, and there is a lot of back-up information in that article that comes directly from the Bible. Burn in hell? No. Go to hell? Yes. However, that sort of atheist would receive a much lighter punishment than an atheist who did nothing, and the atheist was given a way-out of the situation the entire time he was alive. Is this a pleasant doctrine? I will admit that it is not. However, when we make these standards by which God should judge us, we are shooting arrows at barn sides and then drawing the targets around it. We should not expect God's version of morality to conform to our own. I'll probably try to write more on this tomorrow. I know there was a post I wrote on another forum where I spent quite a bit of time writing about this...I'll have to find it somewhere. If not, looks like I'll be spending a lot of time in front of the monitor tomorrow. Think about this statement, though. God is infinite, all-powerful, omniscient, omnipresent. The Bible says that He just speaks and the universe melts. I notice in another thread that you said that you would give at least ten dogs so that one human being could survive. God is so massively, freakishly more powerful and large than us that the comparison of man-to-God has a better analogy in amoeba-to-man than dog-to-man. God, however, decided to become a man and die a horrific, barbaric, humiliating death that resulted in splitting the godhead itself apart (Think about it: God can't be around sin, but Jesus, who is the second member of the Trinity, had sin. For the first and only time, there was tension and abandonment within the godhead. That is why Jesus cried out in anguish on the cross, saying "eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani," which translate as "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The suffering of God was greater than any person could have experienced because His suffering was tri-personal. All three members suffered for our sakes on that day.) To give an analogous situation, let's say you had an ant farm. You wanted to become friends with these ants, but for some reason, they would never, ever be friends with you. You, as a human being, decide to become an ant and live among them to let them know that you care. In response, however, the ants all decide to tear you apart limb-by-limb and eat you. How would you react? I know that when I became human again I would destroy that ant pile in a fit of rage and bid them all good riddance. However, Jesus on the cross said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing," and actually made our cruelty towards Him as a part of our salvation and everlasting life. This is what my God did. To hear someone talk about this in such...negative terms, actually baffles me. I can't understand what the objection is... If a dictator demanded that we glorify him, we would all describe that as narcissism because he shares the same ontology (fundamental nature) as we do. That dictator would be being stupid because, whether he or she likes it or not, the only reason he or she has power is because some aspect of human society decides to give in to his or her demands. Once the army of a dictator abandons ship, that dictator is hopeless. That's what happened to Saddam, the Shah in Iran, and many other such figures. Their arrogance led to their downfall. God, however, is different. He doesn't need us to be powerful. Unlike us, he can't get a hit on a cerebral cortex and lose His intelligence like we can. As I said earlier, God speaks and the universe melts. I know that I can't even pick up a rock heavier than a hundred pounds, and that's who knows how many trillions-upon-trillions-upon-trillions times smaller that is than the universe. I speak and...reality remains the same. God, however, is more complex than just raw power. He is literally love (There is a concept called Trinitarian morality that effectively explains this concept); he has no physical form. Ghosts, if we can see them, have a physical form because they are in a set location at a set time doing certain things. Their physicality just doesn't interact with ours. However, God is not in a physical place at a certain time at a certain place: God isn't even physical. (This is like how the ratio pi isn't physical; pi is what we call a "real concept", and God is a bit like that, but much more complicated and nuanced beyond our imagination.) Human beings have to devote themselves to something higher to be mentally healthy. This is a basic psychiatric fact. Almost all of us do this to an extent, whether it is the concept of family or of love or of charity. God, however, is the greatest thing there is, so for Him to want our worship is more on the lines of him demanding 1). Intellectual honesty and 2). The thing that is best for us, and the fact that it is best for us is how it is always presented in the Bible. God could be much, much more cruel and self-centered than He is (he could make it so that hunger is motivated only by intense pain instead of slight pain and anticipation of physical pleasure, for instance); He could have just wiped us out the instant we sinned and created another humanity to worship Him all day long, and kept doing that for eternity. Heck, why give us free will? God can be much more self-centered than He is. I looked at that webpage, friend, and it seems to have parts that are not very well thought-out or researched at all. Take for instance, this statement: Is morality independent of God, as the humanists claim, or is it subordinate to God, as the fundamentalists believe?
It is at this point in Exodus that we discover the Bible's statement on this issue; God discovers that the people have created an idol and they are worshipping it, so he decides to kill them all. Moses talks him out of it, and in Exodus 32:14, "the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people". Did you notice that? The Lord repented of the evil he was about to do! If morality flows from God and God alone, then why did God need a mortal to stop him from doing evil? Why would God have to repent, if morality is something which flows from his authority and nowhere else? Could it be that the Bible itself acknowledges that morality transcends God and his commandments? It certainly seems that way, particularly when you look back at Genesis 3:22. After Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, God said "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Does God say that he creates good and evil? No, he says that he knows good and evil. In other words, good and evil are concepts which are separate from God, and he himself is confessedly capable of evil!This is an incredibly archaic translation of the Bible (the author is taking from the King James Version, which is four-hundred years old). The word "repented" is better rendered in modern language in context with the passage as "decided not to do" and the word "evil" is the Hebrew word ra', which almost always refers to a calamity, disaster, or something regarded as distasteful by humans. The issue of whether or not God killing people is moral to today's standards is one debate entirely, but to use this passage as saying that "God decided not to do something that would have offended the absolute standard of morality" is incorrect, because that is not how the Bible viewed the situation. So this argument about the Bible stating that morality exists apart from God simply doesn't work. The last objection about God "knowing" good and evil ignores the traditional church view of Trinitarian morality, which is that God, quite literally, is morality (remember how I talked about real concepts earlier, and how God is not physical?), not that he creates morality, and that evil is not something that God creates, but is something that humans decide to do that violates God's nature. God is not considered to be the source of good and evil acts, but of the standard that is used to determine good and evil, and God does not even actively create it; it's something that exists based on raw necessity because of His existence. There are many other parts of the article that make errors like this. Almost everything in this article series is a misrepresentation in some way or another. I would recommend seeing these articles as a bit of a response to other parts of the article: www.christian-thinktank.com/killheir.htmlwww.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.htmlwww.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.htmlwww.christian-thinktank.com/gutripper.html#hardenwww.christian-thinktank.com/qmeanelisha.htmlwww.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.htmlwww.christian-thinktank.com/nowelfare.htmlwww.christian-thinktank.com/midian.htmlI'm glad that you could participate. TheAlmightyQ
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Post by thealmightyq on Jul 19, 2007 21:50:07 GMT -5
Heya Fuzzy! ;D Hey ThealmightyQ ^^ First off sorry i know my beliefs seem a bit scattered because well my mind for the past few years has been a bit of a maze, Don't be sorry! Trust me, I'm a pretty confident Christian now, but my religious views used to be all over the map. I have been an atheist, an agnostic, and a Christian. At various times I have considered becoming a Buddhist, a Hindu, and a Muslim. I used to really worry my parents because I talked about how great and moral a person Muhammad was. I still tell them that I respect Buddhism, even though I disagree with its philosophy. I have loved learning about religions most of my "intellectual life" (I started reading mainly non-fiction books about 2 1/2 to three years ago). I can say that I've been more consistently confused about matters of religion than pretty much everyone in my family. I've always had the problem that I could never walk out in faith on anything, so if I saw something that I couldn't explain, I would immediately start questioning again. A while ago I did a little experiment: In my journal, I wrote down all the evidences that I know supporting Christianity or the reliability of the Bible. When I say evidence, I mean things that are generalities (such as "Cultural, linquistic, and internal literary evidence pointing to the validity of the patriarch stories in Genesis") that I knew had evidence to back themselves up. I sometimes included solitary pieces of evidence, such as "The Jewish historian Josephus' reference to the miracle-working power of Jesus, proving that belief in Jesus' miracles was widespread in Judea in the formative years of Christianity". I came up with twenty-six evidences when I finished. It was then that I realized that I've got to stop questioning every time I hear something that doesn't quite make sense and just have faith because of what I already know. Ever since then, I've been doing very well in my faith. Just a few weeks ago, however, if you had talked to me I would have told you that I was investigating other religions because I'm unsure which one is right. I've spent most of my life for the past three years agonizing over this stuff, so I can perfectly understand being confused. I'm not here to beat you over a head with a Bible...just to be a friend. I can't really find myself thinking like this, because God making exclusive claims in the Bible about salvation would be simply a way of "throwing us off" if this was true. I agree that there is a lot of beauty expounded in other religions, because people from all stratas of society in all times have been capable of using their god-given sense of morality and beauty to become wise in their own right. According to the Christian worldview, however, only Christ's atonement was able to do away with the problem of sin, and trust in another religion is not a viable substitute for what Jesus did for us. (Also, you're welcome about my not attacking you; as I said, I want to be a friend, not a lecturer. I can understand this, but I've found that I'm not an endless source of goodness and selflessness and godlikeness...I'm basically a funnel. I give to others what is poured into me. I need church and edification from other believers in order to stay godlike, because if I try to be a "lone ranger" I always end off track. That's why Christ created the church: The early church was so much more than sermons on Sundays. It's supposed to be fellowship, fun, learning, etc, from other Christians. The word "church" originally only meant a group of believers, not the building they worshiped in. To quote Ecclesiastes: "A chord of three strands is not easily broken." In other words, uniting ourselves with others makes us stronger. How is helping others and helping yourself selfish? If you're a wreck, you're sure as heck not in any condition to help other people, so you have to help yourself every now and then, and helping others is obviously not selfish... Yes, that is so true! I did that for a year, when I was a closet atheist who went to church every Sunday because my parents wanted me to. That's a great example of that. The Bible says that even knowing that God is real isn't enough, because even Satan knows that God is real. We have to trust in God and walk in His ways to be considered righteous...we can't play a shell game of "go to church once a week and I'm set". Christianity is a life-style, not an occasional recreational activity. Well, all people are flawed and sinful in some way, and God does not accept anything less than perfection. This may sound wrong on God's part, but think of this: Every culture in history has set up beliefs in the afterlife that almost always conformed to what they thought. In Egypt, if you decided to ritualistically kill a young child and bury him under your house for magical purposes, this was an accepted practice. We all regard this as abhorrent. We as humans tend to shoot arrows and then draw the target around where we've hit, and then say that God placing the target in a more difficult location is wrong. We can't expect God to conform to us here on what His standards should be. However, God still found a way for us to be with Him despite our sinfulness (the death of Jesus). That is very good of you, Fuzzy. That is the sort of attitude I imagine God wants from more of His people! However, according to the Bible, exclusive trust in God alone is what is required to reap the benefits of His sacrifice for us. Do you trust in God alone? I'm getting the sense that part of you thinks that Jesus' atonement isn't necessary for salvation, and that part contradicts the Bible. I would like hearing your answers to these questions. Nice talking with you Fuzzy, and I hope we can talk again! (BTW, the christian-thinktank is EXTREMELY thorough. Which means it's always very long. The articles are oftentimes very readable, IMO, but expect big reads. Really, if you're not seeking the truth and genuine Christian answers to tough questions, you won't have the ability to read all of these articles because of their size. If you do read them, however, I think your faith will be highly enriched by what Glenn Miller has written on this site. This man is really one of my heroes...not only does he do this amazing site that's better than everything else on the web, but he spends twenty hours working on charity and likes to help out with the personal problems of those who e-mail him with question. I've really come to love the guy, even though I've never met him. Two other sites that are very good (which tend to address different areas of the Christian worldview than what Christian-Thinktank addresses) are: www.tektonics.orgbede.org.ukThose two sites, together with Christian-Thinktank.com, make an incredible argument for the Christian faith that can not be ignored. I've found reading apologetics to be edifying to my own faith, but it may or may not be for yours. Different strokes for different folks. See you later! TheAlmightyQ
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Fuzzy
Pup
MILK MIIIILK
Posts: 97
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Post by Fuzzy on Jul 20, 2007 5:58:29 GMT -5
Hey Q, I'm glad you want to be a friend rather than a lecturer, i've come across a few lecturing types in my time which to no end irritate me, it's one thing to show someone your faith and it's another to shove it down their throat lol Again your sea of words put to shame my little puddle ^^; As for doubt Jesus' atonement i don't ,i suppose i just don't hype on about it as much, sorry if i give that impression i usually try to keep openminded, to be closedminded can be dangerous. As for trusting in God i do, i don't see how i can not in the world i live in, the only one who will always be there no matter what will always be God sure i have my family but due to recent events some members have proven to be very unreliable, so as you can guess God is a very important factor in my life. Ah so you were an athiest? What made you turn to God? Asfor the selfish part i just figured it would of sounded selfish helping one's self than rather go to church and be with others, just sounded so in my head ^^; I doubt anyone is an endless source of goodness, you perhaps need church me i just need my family who are also christian, i occasionally talk to them about my beliefs and get pointed in the right direction, and the fact that i am given so much love from them that i can easily share it with others, thats all i need really my God and the ones i love ^^ i never got that feeling from church when i was small, i always used to feel it was a boring place where the cheek pinching people waited for me ¬.¬ and the fact that they never took your faith seriously either because of being a young age really irked me (sure i was only 7 when i became a christian and most wouldn't take me seriously but shouldn't anyone's faith in their religion be taken seriously?) Things like therianthropy and paranormal experiences confused me a bit and i'm still trying to make sense of them in regards to my faith but with some i've found that they have nothing to do with my faith or endanger it at all, they just are, still though i can't help but try and fit this weird jigsaw together ^^; Nice talking with you too Q hope to talk more later ^^
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Post by Kai on Jul 20, 2007 13:22:30 GMT -5
Burn in hell? No. Go to hell? Yes. However, that sort of atheist would receive a much lighter punishment than an atheist who did nothing, and the atheist was given a way-out of the situation the entire time he was alive. I thought all sins were equal in the eyes of God? Of course, this depends on which sub-relgion you pratice. And how is that in anyway forgiving? Mortals punish crimials like that. And in our justice system are doing your time, you are allowed another chance. Face it, Chrisitainity is a bloody religion. Look at Japan. It's crime rates are much lower than our own. And this is country that attempted to take over the world in WWII. The Japanese worship nature, not a God.
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